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Paul Giverin
10-25-2004, 05:09 PM
Is it possible to make a judgement on the serviceability and condition
of the lambda probe by using the emissions test report from a recent
MOT?

--
Paul Giverin

British Jet Engine Website http://www.britjet.co.uk

chris
10-25-2004, 05:09 PM
"Paul Giverin" <paul@giverin.co.uk> wrote in message
news:qqgeKiGf56aBFwo6@10.0.0.3...
> Is it possible to make a judgement on the serviceability and condition of
> the lambda probe by using the emissions test report from a recent MOT?
>

Up to a point - the cat itself will mask minor fuelling faults...
Usually total failure will result in the engine management light coming on
and poor driveability.


---
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Andy Hewitt
10-25-2004, 05:09 PM
Paul Giverin <paul@giverin.co.uk> wrote:

> Is it possible to make a judgement on the serviceability and condition
> of the lambda probe by using the emissions test report from a recent
> MOT?

Probably not, unless you can totally isolate any other causes of
emissions anomolies. So many other factors can affect such a reading:

condition of the air filter
condition of the spark plugs
quality of fuel
engine wear
engine problems - such as valves sticking on a Zetec
the calibration of the individual test machine - they can vary very
slightly

You could visually inspect it, but you wouldn't be able to see the
actual probe anyway.

The only test that would show something would be an oscilliscope viewing
of it running. You should see regular changes from about 100mv to 800mv,
use 500mv as the centre line.

If it doesn't move much off the centre line then it's probably on it's
way out. If it sits at 1v then it is most likely the engine is running
badly (I can't recall if it's weak or rich right now). If it reads 0v
then it could also be a running problem (opposite to above), or its gone
open circuit.

--
Andy Hewitt ** FAF#1, (Ex-OSOS#5) - FJ1200 ABS
Honda Civic 16v: Windows free zone (Mac G5 Dual Processor)
http://www.thehewitts.plus.com

Paul Giverin
10-25-2004, 05:09 PM
In message <1glk6pz.1wgaragj3pmdbN%hairy.biker@spamcop.net>, Andy Hewitt
<hairy.biker@spamcop.net> writes
>Paul Giverin <paul@giverin.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Is it possible to make a judgement on the serviceability and condition
>> of the lambda probe by using the emissions test report from a recent
>> MOT?
>
>Probably not, unless you can totally isolate any other causes of
>emissions anomolies. So many other factors can affect such a reading:
>
>
If I could rephrase the question a little. If the results of the
emissions test were well within limits, could I assume that the Lambda
probe was working fine?

--
Paul Giverin

British Jet Engine Website http://www.britjet.co.uk

Andy Hewitt
10-25-2004, 05:09 PM
Paul Giverin <paul@giverin.co.uk> wrote:

> In message <1glk6pz.1wgaragj3pmdbN%hairy.biker@spamcop.net>, Andy Hewitt
> <hairy.biker@spamcop.net> writes
> >Paul Giverin <paul@giverin.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> Is it possible to make a judgement on the serviceability and condition
> >> of the lambda probe by using the emissions test report from a recent
> >> MOT?
> >
> >Probably not, unless you can totally isolate any other causes of
> >emissions anomolies. So many other factors can affect such a reading:
> >
> >
> If I could rephrase the question a little. If the results of the
> emissions test were well within limits, could I assume that the Lambda
> probe was working fine?

Yes.

--
Andy Hewitt ** FAF#1, (Ex-OSOS#5) - FJ1200 ABS
Honda Civic 16v: Windows free zone (Mac G5 Dual Processor)
http://www.thehewitts.plus.com

Paul Giverin
10-25-2004, 05:09 PM
In message <8z5o06h6uc2z.103gswqi6gs5q$.dlg@40tude.net>, Chris Street
<venus.ngfb@chris-street.demon.co.uk> writes
>On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 20:02:47 +0100, Paul Giverin wrote:
>
>>>
>>>
>> If I could rephrase the question a little. If the results of the
>> emissions test were well within limits, could I assume that the Lambda
>> probe was working fine?
>
>Almost certainly.

I should have asked it that way in the first place, shouldn't I?

;)

--
Paul Giverin

British Jet Engine Website http://www.britjet.co.uk

Paul Giverin
10-25-2004, 05:09 PM
In message <1glk969.95pkiz1vy64wtN%hairy.biker@spamcop.net>, Andy Hewitt
<hairy.biker@spamcop.net> writes
>Paul Giverin <paul@giverin.co.uk> wrote:
>> >
>> If I could rephrase the question a little. If the results of the
>> emissions test were well within limits, could I assume that the Lambda
>> probe was working fine?
>
>Yes.
>
Cheers Andy, I got there in the end :)

--
Paul Giverin

British Jet Engine Website http://www.britjet.co.uk

Andy Hewitt
10-25-2004, 05:09 PM
Paul Giverin <paul@giverin.co.uk> wrote:

> In message <1glk969.95pkiz1vy64wtN%hairy.biker@spamcop.net>, Andy Hewitt
> <hairy.biker@spamcop.net> writes
> >Paul Giverin <paul@giverin.co.uk> wrote:
> >> >
> >> If I could rephrase the question a little. If the results of the
> >> emissions test were well within limits, could I assume that the Lambda
> >> probe was working fine?
> >
> >Yes.
> >
> Cheers Andy, I got there in the end :)

It was simple wasn't it? ;-)

--
Andy Hewitt ** FAF#1, (Ex-OSOS#5) - FJ1200 ABS
Honda Civic 16v: Windows free zone (Mac G5 Dual Processor)
http://www.thehewitts.plus.com

Andy Hewitt
10-25-2004, 05:09 PM
Paul Giverin <paul@giverin.co.uk> wrote:

> In message <8z5o06h6uc2z.103gswqi6gs5q$.dlg@40tude.net>, Chris Street
> <venus.ngfb@chris-street.demon.co.uk> writes
> >On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 20:02:47 +0100, Paul Giverin wrote:
> >
> >>>
> >>>
> >> If I could rephrase the question a little. If the results of the
> >> emissions test were well within limits, could I assume that the Lambda
> >> probe was working fine?
> >
> >Almost certainly.
>
> I should have asked it that way in the first place, shouldn't I?
>
> ;)

Yes :-)

--
Andy Hewitt ** FAF#1, (Ex-OSOS#5) - FJ1200 ABS
Honda Civic 16v: Windows free zone (Mac G5 Dual Processor)
http://www.thehewitts.plus.com

Mike P
10-25-2004, 05:09 PM
"Andy Hewitt" <hairy.biker@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:1glk6pz.1wgaragj3pmdbN%hairy.biker@spamcop.ne t...
> Paul Giverin <paul@giverin.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Is it possible to make a judgement on the serviceability and condition
> > of the lambda probe by using the emissions test report from a recent
> > MOT?
>
> Probably not, unless you can totally isolate any other causes of
> emissions anomolies. So many other factors can affect such a reading:
>
> condition of the air filter
> condition of the spark plugs
> quality of fuel
> engine wear
> engine problems - such as valves sticking on a Zetec
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

My Mondeo failed it's test last week on emissions. I changed the plugs and
airfilter, took it for a thrash
and it scraped through. However, when I was changing the cambelt end plug,
it was very oily on the electrodes, and I could
see oil in the cylinder when a torch was shined down. Sticking valves?

Any advice appreciated!
Mike

Andy Hewitt
10-25-2004, 05:09 PM
Mike P <privacy@privacy.net> wrote:

> "Andy Hewitt" <hairy.biker@spamcop.net> wrote in message
> news:1glk6pz.1wgaragj3pmdbN%hairy.biker@spamcop.ne t...
> > Paul Giverin <paul@giverin.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > > Is it possible to make a judgement on the serviceability and condition
> > > of the lambda probe by using the emissions test report from a recent
> > > MOT?
> >
> > Probably not, unless you can totally isolate any other causes of
> > emissions anomolies. So many other factors can affect such a reading:
> >
> > condition of the air filter
> > condition of the spark plugs
> > quality of fuel
> > engine wear
> > engine problems - such as valves sticking on a Zetec
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> My Mondeo failed it's test last week on emissions. I changed the plugs and
> airfilter, took it for a thrash
> and it scraped through. However, when I was changing the cambelt end plug,
> it was very oily on the electrodes, and I could
> see oil in the cylinder when a torch was shined down. Sticking valves?
>
> Any advice appreciated!
> Mike

No, that's more likely worn valve guide seals, or worn/stuck piston
rings

However, if you're sure the plugs were removed without any fiddling
arond, this could be so, otherwise it might just tbe leaking rocker
cover seals.

--
Andy Hewitt ** FAF#1, (Ex-OSOS#5) - FJ1200 ABS
Honda Civic 16v: Windows free zone (Mac G5 Dual Processor)
http://www.thehewitts.plus.com

Warwick
10-25-2004, 05:09 PM
In article <1glk6pz.1wgaragj3pmdbN%hairy.biker@spamcop.net>,
hairy.biker@spamcop.net says...
> Paul Giverin <paul@giverin.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Is it possible to make a judgement on the serviceability and condition
> > of the lambda probe by using the emissions test report from a recent
> > MOT?
>
> Probably not, unless you can totally isolate any other causes of
> emissions anomolies. So many other factors can affect such a reading:
>
> condition of the air filter
> condition of the spark plugs
> quality of fuel
> engine wear
> engine problems - such as valves sticking on a Zetec
> the calibration of the individual test machine - they can vary very
> slightly

The Escort had trouble getting a pass on the emissions a couple of years
ago. I changed all of the filters, the garage replaced the cat and the
last thing changed was the lambda sensor (which turned out to be the
fault). It seems they aren't very prone to fault and there are so many
more basic things that'll go wrong that its well down the list of
diagnostics.

If assuming there was a reason for the question and the only one I can
imagine is that fuel economy is down.

If his emissions are a pass and fuel economy is down then it isn't
likely to be the lambda. An air leak somewhere would do it though.

Just pondering

Warwick

Andy Hewitt
10-25-2004, 05:09 PM
Warwick <usenet@affordable-afpers.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <1glk6pz.1wgaragj3pmdbN%hairy.biker@spamcop.net>,
> hairy.biker@spamcop.net says...
> > Paul Giverin <paul@giverin.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > > Is it possible to make a judgement on the serviceability and condition
> > > of the lambda probe by using the emissions test report from a recent
> > > MOT?
> >
> > Probably not, unless you can totally isolate any other causes of
> > emissions anomolies. So many other factors can affect such a reading:
> >
> > condition of the air filter
> > condition of the spark plugs
> > quality of fuel
> > engine wear
> > engine problems - such as valves sticking on a Zetec
> > the calibration of the individual test machine - they can vary very
> > slightly
>
> The Escort had trouble getting a pass on the emissions a couple of years
> ago. I changed all of the filters, the garage replaced the cat and the
> last thing changed was the lambda sensor (which turned out to be the
> fault). It seems they aren't very prone to fault and there are so many
> more basic things that'll go wrong that its well down the list of
> diagnostics.

Indeed. I went on a Ford trainign course a few years ago, and the
instructor told us that he'd been given the task of testing some 3000
Lambda sensors that had been returned as warranty repairs. Only one was
actually faulty.

It should be very low down on the list of possibilities. However, you
should also look at other information too, such as likely causes on a
particular vehicle.

later Escorts, for example, had the block connector mounted upside down
behind the radiator. As such they were prone to filling with water.
Simply drsining the water and cleaning the contacts was enough to effect
a repair.

On a Fiat, you could quite easily suspect the sensor in the first
instance.

> If assuming there was a reason for the question and the only one I can
> imagine is that fuel economy is down.
>
> If his emissions are a pass and fuel economy is down then it isn't
> likely to be the lambda. An air leak somewhere would do it though.

Doubt that, an air leak is likely to cause poor emissions too.

> Just pondering

There's plenty of food for thought here ;-)

--
Andy Hewitt ** FAF#1, (Ex-OSOS#5) - FJ1200 ABS
Honda Civic 16v: Windows free zone (Mac G5 Dual Processor)
http://www.thehewitts.plus.com

Guy King
10-25-2004, 05:09 PM
The message <1glry1h.cb1fofwz2qznN%hairy.biker@spamcop.net>
from hairy.biker@spamcop.net (Andy Hewitt) contains these words:

> On a Fiat, you could quite easily suspect the sensor in the first
> instance.

The only two sensors I've replaced have both been on Fiats.

--
Skipweasel.
Being superstitious brings bad luck

Andy Hewitt
10-25-2004, 05:09 PM
Guy King <guy.king@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:

> The message <1glry1h.cb1fofwz2qznN%hairy.biker@spamcop.net>
> from hairy.biker@spamcop.net (Andy Hewitt) contains these words:
>
> > On a Fiat, you could quite easily suspect the sensor in the first
> > instance.
>
> The only two sensors I've replaced have both been on Fiats.

Yes, they are a very common fault. Very often you'll find they bring on
the warning light but don't store a fault code.

--
Andy Hewitt ** FAF#1, (Ex-OSOS#5) - FJ1200 ABS
Honda Civic 16v: Windows free zone (Mac G5 Dual Processor)
http://www.thehewitts.plus.com

Warwick
10-25-2004, 05:09 PM
> > If his emissions are a pass and fuel economy is down then it isn't
> > likely to be the lambda. An air leak somewhere would do it though.
>
> Doubt that, an air leak is likely to cause poor emissions too.

If the CAT's handling it and the lambda is OK wouldn't the emissions be
OK from a rich runner?

I was thinking of a small leak after the airflow sensor on the intake
rather than a big hole in it.

Warwick

Andy Hewitt
10-25-2004, 05:09 PM
Warwick <usenet@affordable-afpers.co.uk> wrote:

> > > If his emissions are a pass and fuel economy is down then it isn't
> > > likely to be the lambda. An air leak somewhere would do it though.
> >
> > Doubt that, an air leak is likely to cause poor emissions too.
>
> If the CAT's handling it and the lambda is OK wouldn't the emissions be
> OK from a rich runner?
>
> I was thinking of a small leak after the airflow sensor on the intake
> rather than a big hole in it.

I see, maybe. I'd have to test that to find out though, it could be
different for each model of vehicle. It might be possibe I guess, but
the leak would have to be very small.

--
Andy Hewitt ** FAF#1, (Ex-OSOS#5) - FJ1200 ABS
Honda Civic 16v: Windows free zone (Mac G5 Dual Processor)
http://www.thehewitts.plus.com

Peter Hill
10-25-2004, 05:09 PM
On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 00:14:25 +0100, Warwick
<usenet@affordable-afpers.co.uk> wrote:

>In article <1glk6pz.1wgaragj3pmdbN%hairy.biker@spamcop.net>,
>hairy.biker@spamcop.net says...
>> Paul Giverin <paul@giverin.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> > Is it possible to make a judgement on the serviceability and condition
>> > of the lambda probe by using the emissions test report from a recent
>> > MOT?
>>
>> Probably not, unless you can totally isolate any other causes of
>> emissions anomolies. So many other factors can affect such a reading:
>>
>> condition of the air filter
>> condition of the spark plugs
>> quality of fuel
>> engine wear
>> engine problems - such as valves sticking on a Zetec
>> the calibration of the individual test machine - they can vary very
>> slightly
>
>The Escort had trouble getting a pass on the emissions a couple of years
>ago. I changed all of the filters, the garage replaced the cat and the
>last thing changed was the lambda sensor (which turned out to be the
>fault). It seems they aren't very prone to fault and there are so many
>more basic things that'll go wrong that its well down the list of
>diagnostics.
>
>If assuming there was a reason for the question and the only one I can
>imagine is that fuel economy is down.
>
>If his emissions are a pass and fuel economy is down then it isn't
>likely to be the lambda. An air leak somewhere would do it though.
>
>Just pondering
>
>Warwick

Had the cat really been killed by rich running due to duff lambda
sensor. Or were they just wandering around in the dark replacing suff
willy-nilly.

--
Peter Hill
Spamtrap reply domain as per NNTP-Posting-Host in header
Can of worms - what every fisherman wants.
Can of worms - what every PC owner gets!

Warwick
10-25-2004, 05:09 PM
In article <62g4n0hf8j8qgum3ic7lk6v6p98le4u6pb@4ax.com>, peter.usenet1
@nospam.demon.co.uk says...
> On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 00:14:25 +0100, Warwick
> <usenet@affordable-afpers.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >In article <1glk6pz.1wgaragj3pmdbN%hairy.biker@spamcop.net>,
> >hairy.biker@spamcop.net says...
> >> Paul Giverin <paul@giverin.co.uk> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Is it possible to make a judgement on the serviceability and condition
> >> > of the lambda probe by using the emissions test report from a recent
> >> > MOT?
> >>
> >> Probably not, unless you can totally isolate any other causes of
> >> emissions anomolies. So many other factors can affect such a reading:
> >>
> >> condition of the air filter
> >> condition of the spark plugs
> >> quality of fuel
> >> engine wear
> >> engine problems - such as valves sticking on a Zetec
> >> the calibration of the individual test machine - they can vary very
> >> slightly
> >
> >The Escort had trouble getting a pass on the emissions a couple of years
> >ago. I changed all of the filters, the garage replaced the cat and the
> >last thing changed was the lambda sensor (which turned out to be the
> >fault). It seems they aren't very prone to fault and there are so many
> >more basic things that'll go wrong that its well down the list of
> >diagnostics.
> >
>
> Had the cat really been killed by rich running due to duff lambda
> sensor. Or were they just wandering around in the dark replacing suff
> willy-nilly.

I think they were working along a check list of likely contenders for
the emissions fail.

Warwick