Paging Huw, or anyone else into ****e old Diesels...

[JackH]

I recently bought a very clean Montego Countryman TD estate, to use as a
workhorse for my job etc.

I also, at the same time, got given back my old Montego TD estate, which the
new owner managed to slam into a solid inaminate object.

Anyway, the 'new' Monty... well it has the following issues:

* Takes ages to start, and needs throttle to get it to catch - the 'old' one
started first turn of the key last week, having stood for weeks. (obviously
I appreciate this might just be knackered glowplugs)
* Wafts diesel smoke on tickover
* Is heavily dirtying the rear bumper with soot
* If stood ticking over for a while, and then revved, it chucks out a very
thick black cloud of smoke.
* Generally feels a bit lacklustre performance wise, compared to the other
one.
* Fuel consumption isn't as good as I'd hoped.

So... obviously it's to do with the fuelling side in the main - I changed
the air and fuel filters last week and it seemed a little better initially,
and it's had a bottle of Millers mixed in with the last full tank of juice
that it had... so is it more likely to be a pump or injector issue?

I have the other car to rape for bits, but would rather not pull a perfectly
good running drivetrain to bits, unless the problem was pinpointed
beforehand.

TIA

--
JackH

[Moray Cuthill]

"JackH" <jackhackettuk@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:2tinp1F1vtfmdU1@uni-berlin.de...
>I recently bought a very clean Montego Countryman TD estate, to use as a
> workhorse for my job etc.
>
> I also, at the same time, got given back my old Montego TD estate, which
> the
> new owner managed to slam into a solid inaminate object.
>
> Anyway, the 'new' Monty... well it has the following issues:
>
> * Takes ages to start, and needs throttle to get it to catch - the 'old'
> one
> started first turn of the key last week, having stood for weeks.
> (obviously
> I appreciate this might just be knackered glowplugs)
> * Wafts diesel smoke on tickover
> * Is heavily dirtying the rear bumper with soot
> * If stood ticking over for a while, and then revved, it chucks out a very
> thick black cloud of smoke.
> * Generally feels a bit lacklustre performance wise, compared to the other
> one.
> * Fuel consumption isn't as good as I'd hoped.
>
> So... obviously it's to do with the fuelling side in the main - I changed
> the air and fuel filters last week and it seemed a little better
> initially,
> and it's had a bottle of Millers mixed in with the last full tank of juice
> that it had... so is it more likely to be a pump or injector issue?
>
> I have the other car to rape for bits, but would rather not pull a
> perfectly
> good running drivetrain to bits, unless the problem was pinpointed
> beforehand.
>
> TIA
>
> --
> JackH
>
>

Sounds like worn injectors.
Bad starting is most likely the glow plugs, but bad injectors won't be
helping any.

[Huw]

"JackH" <jackhackettuk@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:2tinp1F1vtfmdU1@uni-berlin.de...
>I recently bought a very clean Montego Countryman TD estate, to use as a
> workhorse for my job etc.
>
> I also, at the same time, got given back my old Montego TD estate, which
> the
> new owner managed to slam into a solid inaminate object.
>
> Anyway, the 'new' Monty... well it has the following issues:
>
> * Takes ages to start, and needs throttle to get it to catch - the 'old'
> one
> started first turn of the key last week, having stood for weeks.
> (obviously
> I appreciate this might just be knackered glowplugs)
> * Wafts diesel smoke on tickover
> * Is heavily dirtying the rear bumper with soot
> * If stood ticking over for a while, and then revved, it chucks out a very
> thick black cloud of smoke.
> * Generally feels a bit lacklustre performance wise, compared to the other
> one.
> * Fuel consumption isn't as good as I'd hoped.
>
> So... obviously it's to do with the fuelling side in the main - I changed
> the air and fuel filters last week and it seemed a little better
> initially,
> and it's had a bottle of Millers mixed in with the last full tank of juice
> that it had... so is it more likely to be a pump or injector issue?
>
> I have the other car to rape for bits, but would rather not pull a
> perfectly
> good running drivetrain to bits, unless the problem was pinpointed
> beforehand.
>

Does it have exhaust gas recirculation? Probably. If so then disable the
damn thing and check that any valves associated with it are not stuck in a
position that either limits air or lets exhaust gas back into the inlet on a
permanent basis.
That checked and done, then give it a good dose of injector cleaner as
mentioned earlier.
If all else fails and the problem persists then a diesel specialist should
be consulted with a view to checking whether the injectors need a service or
a setting on the pump needs tweaking.

Huw

[Huw]

"JackH" <jackhackettuk@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:2tinp1F1vtfmdU1@uni-berlin.de...
>I recently bought a very clean Montego Countryman TD estate, to use as a
> workhorse for my job etc.
>

Oh Heck! A Montego!

I misread and took it to be a Mondeo. Must take more care
speed-reading....Gulp.


You are right. It is a ****e old diesel but there is nothing you can do
about that. Even when new they ponged a bit but you have obviously got a
problem. I suggest seeing a psychiatrist urgently.

Huw

[DuncanWood]

On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 21:59:14 +0100, Moray Cuthill
<moray_dot_cuthill@v21.me.uk> wrote:

>
> "JackH" <jackhackettuk@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:2tinp1F1vtfmdU1@uni-berlin.de...
>> I recently bought a very clean Montego Countryman TD estate, to use as a
>> workhorse for my job etc.
>>
>> I also, at the same time, got given back my old Montego TD estate, which
>> the
>> new owner managed to slam into a solid inaminate object.
>>
>> Anyway, the 'new' Monty... well it has the following issues:
>>
>> * Takes ages to start, and needs throttle to get it to catch - the 'old'
>> one
>> started first turn of the key last week, having stood for weeks.
>> (obviously
>> I appreciate this might just be knackered glowplugs)
>> * Wafts diesel smoke on tickover
>> * Is heavily dirtying the rear bumper with soot
>> * If stood ticking over for a while, and then revved, it chucks out a
>> very
>> thick black cloud of smoke.
>> * Generally feels a bit lacklustre performance wise, compared to the
>> other
>> one.
>> * Fuel consumption isn't as good as I'd hoped.
>>
>> So... obviously it's to do with the fuelling side in the main - I
>> changed
>> the air and fuel filters last week and it seemed a little better
>> initially,
>> and it's had a bottle of Millers mixed in with the last full tank of
>> juice
>> that it had... so is it more likely to be a pump or injector issue?
>>
>> I have the other car to rape for bits, but would rather not pull a
>> perfectly
>> good running drivetrain to bits, unless the problem was pinpointed
>> beforehand.
>>
>> TIA
>>
>> --
>> JackH
>>
>>
>
> Sounds like worn injectors.
> Bad starting is most likely the glow plugs, but bad injectors won't be
> helping any.
>
>

& get the compression checked.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <2tiuqnF20g0kdU1@uni-berlin.de>,
Huw <hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> You are right. It is a ****e old diesel but there is nothing you can do
> about that. Even when new they ponged a bit but you have obviously got a
> problem. I suggest seeing a psychiatrist urgently.

Hmm. A crude engine but economical and powerful - in its day. And pretty
long lived.

--
*How many roads must a man travel down before he admits he is lost? *

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Guy King]

The message <2tinp1F1vtfmdU1@uni-berlin.de>
from "JackH" <jackhackettuk@yahoo.co.uk> contains these words:

> I have the other car to rape for bits, but would rather not pull a perfectly
> good running drivetrain to bits, unless the problem was pinpointed
> beforehand.

I'd suggest it's the injectors. Try pulling 'em out of the old head if
they're compatible. If not you'll have to swap the piping as well.

If you're breaking the old one then the Monty/Maestro club might be
interested in knowing.

--
Skipweasel.
In the beginning was the word.
And the word was Aardvark.

[Guy King]

The message <4d001132aadave@davenoise.co.uk>
from "Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> contains these words:

> Hmm. A crude engine but economical and powerful - in its day. And pretty
> long lived.

Mine's still going.

--
Skipweasel.
In the beginning was the word.
And the word was Aardvark.

[JackH]

"Guy King" <guy.king@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3130303034323739417439A838@zetnet.co.uk...
> The message <2tinp1F1vtfmdU1@uni-berlin.de>
> from "JackH" <jackhackettuk@yahoo.co.uk> contains these words:
>
> > I have the other car to rape for bits, but would rather not pull a
perfectly
> > good running drivetrain to bits, unless the problem was pinpointed
> > beforehand.
>
> I'd suggest it's the injectors. Try pulling 'em out of the old head if
> they're compatible. If not you'll have to swap the piping as well.
>
> If you're breaking the old one then the Monty/Maestro club might be
> interested in knowing.

I am breaking it... but due to the really high miles anything I use for work
tends to do, I'm going to be keeping hold of anything remotely mechanical.

I can't see there being a stampede for anything like the glass out of it,
either.

--
JackH

[JackH]

"Huw" <hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:2tiuqnF20g0kdU1@uni-berlin.de...
>
> "JackH" <jackhackettuk@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:2tinp1F1vtfmdU1@uni-berlin.de...
> >I recently bought a very clean Montego Countryman TD estate, to use as a
> > workhorse for my job etc.
> >
>
> Oh Heck! A Montego!
>
> I misread and took it to be a Mondeo. Must take more care
> speed-reading....Gulp.
>
>
> You are right. It is a ****e old diesel but there is nothing you can do
> about that. Even when new they ponged a bit but you have obviously got a
> problem. I suggest seeing a psychiatrist urgently.

It might be a ****e old diesel... but I've yet to find anything else
available as cheaply, that will reliably lug around as much gear, as
economically.

The damaged one used to crack 65mpg on a steady long distance run; more than
the Fiesta or Corsa diesels I had before it.

--
JackH

[JackH]

"Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4d001132aadave@davenoise.co.uk...
> In article <2tiuqnF20g0kdU1@uni-berlin.de>,
> Huw <hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> > You are right. It is a ****e old diesel but there is nothing you can do
> > about that. Even when new they ponged a bit but you have obviously got a
> > problem. I suggest seeing a psychiatrist urgently.
>
> Hmm. A crude engine but economical and powerful - in its day. And pretty
> long lived.

If you can find a car that hasn't got the backside hanging out of it (which
I have), they're a good, reliable, simple to maintain workhorse.

--
JackH

[Guy King]

The message <2tjp98F20sponU1@uni-berlin.de>
from "JackH" <jackhackettuk@yahoo.co.uk> contains these words:

> I can't see there being a stampede for anything like the glass out of it,
> either.

No, fair enough. Does the heat matrix leak?

--
Skipweasel.
In the beginning was the word.
And the word was Aardvark.

[Guy King]

The message <2tjpdkF20d3ifU1@uni-berlin.de>
from "JackH" <jackhackettuk@yahoo.co.uk> contains these words:

> The damaged one used to crack 65mpg on a steady long distance run; more than
> the Fiesta or Corsa diesels I had before it.

Even grinding up and down Cornish hills for a week I got over 50mpg out
of mine. As you say - long runs it'll return excellent economy, and
considering the purchase price and depreciation it'd be a long time
before you could repay the cost of anything more economical.

--
Skipweasel.
In the beginning was the word.
And the word was Aardvark.

[Huw]

"JackH" <jackhackettuk@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:2tjpdkF20d3ifU1@uni-berlin.de...
>
> "Huw" <hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:2tiuqnF20g0kdU1@uni-berlin.de...
>>
>> "JackH" <jackhackettuk@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:2tinp1F1vtfmdU1@uni-berlin.de...
>> >I recently bought a very clean Montego Countryman TD estate, to use as a
>> > workhorse for my job etc.
>> >
>>
>> Oh Heck! A Montego!
>>
>> I misread and took it to be a Mondeo. Must take more care
>> speed-reading....Gulp.
>>
>>
>> You are right. It is a ****e old diesel but there is nothing you can do
>> about that. Even when new they ponged a bit but you have obviously got a
>> problem. I suggest seeing a psychiatrist urgently.
>
> It might be a ****e old diesel... but I've yet to find anything else
> available as cheaply, that will reliably lug around as much gear, as
> economically.
>
> The damaged one used to crack 65mpg on a steady long distance run; more
> than
> the Fiesta or Corsa diesels I had before it.
>

If economy is your top priority then there is no doubt it is still about the
best.
As for your problem, it could be as simple as pump timing or as expensive as
an injector pump needing a service. It is not a complex engine so it should
be fairly easy to diagnose if not cheap to repair.

I am tainted by owning a petrol MG Montego as long ago as 1984 and it was a
disgracefully unreliable heap. Anything that could go wrong did, apart from
the Honda supplied gearbox which was nice for its time. It put me off
Leyland/Rover products for life. I cannot pass a Rover without wincing. I
had a nice Rover 75 for a couple of days last month and I was nervous about
ever reaching home from each journey. Unfair I know.


Huw
Huw

[AstraVanMan]

> > You are right. It is a ****e old diesel but there is nothing you can do
> > about that. Even when new they ponged a bit but you have obviously got a
> > problem. I suggest seeing a psychiatrist urgently.
>
> Hmm. A crude engine but economical and powerful - in its day. And pretty
> long lived.

Still lives on now doesn't it, in the Rover 25/MG Range, as the L-series
(are the 2.0TDs in the 25/ZR still the L-series) ?

Peter
--
"The truth is working in television is not very glamorous at all. I just go
home on my own at night and sit alone and eat crisps."

[JackH]

"Huw" <hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:2tjv80F2040etU1@uni-berlin.de...
>
> "JackH" <jackhackettuk@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:2tjpdkF20d3ifU1@uni-berlin.de...
> >
> > "Huw" <hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:2tiuqnF20g0kdU1@uni-berlin.de...
> >>
> >> "JackH" <jackhackettuk@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> >> news:2tinp1F1vtfmdU1@uni-berlin.de...
> >> >I recently bought a very clean Montego Countryman TD estate, to use as
a
> >> > workhorse for my job etc.
> >> >
> >>
> >> Oh Heck! A Montego!
> >>
> >> I misread and took it to be a Mondeo. Must take more care
> >> speed-reading....Gulp.
> >>
> >>
> >> You are right. It is a ****e old diesel but there is nothing you can do
> >> about that. Even when new they ponged a bit but you have obviously got
a
> >> problem. I suggest seeing a psychiatrist urgently.
> >
> > It might be a ****e old diesel... but I've yet to find anything else
> > available as cheaply, that will reliably lug around as much gear, as
> > economically.
> >
> > The damaged one used to crack 65mpg on a steady long distance run; more
> > than
> > the Fiesta or Corsa diesels I had before it.
> >
>
> If economy is your top priority then there is no doubt it is still about
the
> best.
> As for your problem, it could be as simple as pump timing or as expensive
as
> an injector pump needing a service. It is not a complex engine so it
should
> be fairly easy to diagnose if not cheap to repair.

> I am tainted by owning a petrol MG Montego as long ago as 1984 and it was
a
> disgracefully unreliable heap.

The 2.0i petrols in general, weren't too bad - IME, it's the 1.6 and 1.3
petrols, in both Maestro and Montego form, that gave more grief than
anything, due to the Lucas sourced ECUs, which were very unreliable.

To be fair, when they worked properly, they were pretty good on fuel etc.,
due to the electronically controlled carb working vvery efficiently.

The diesels on the other hand, are pretty spot on overall, and I suspect my
problems only stem from the previous owner not mainataining it very well in
later life.

--
JackH

[JackH]

"Guy King" <guy.king@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:31303030343237394174CA0B58@zetnet.co.uk...
> The message <2tjp98F20sponU1@uni-berlin.de>
> from "JackH" <jackhackettuk@yahoo.co.uk> contains these words:
>
> > I can't see there being a stampede for anything like the glass out of
it,
> > either.
>
> No, fair enough. Does the heat matrix leak?

Nope - mechanically it's pretty good overall... can't say I'm all that
enamoured by the prospect of ripping the dash out to get to anything like
that though.

I might just sell the pair of them off, tbh; I've now been offered the
chance of a Mercedes Vito at a very favourable price, and I won't need two
back-up vehicles if I do get that, and would keep my Golf TDI over the
Montegos.

--
JackH

[Guy King]

The message <2tkfm9F20nmcaU1@uni-berlin.de>
from "JackH" <jackhackettuk@yahoo.co.uk> contains these words:

> The diesels on the other hand, are pretty spot on overall, and I suspect my
> problems only stem from the previous owner not mainataining it very well in
> later life.

And, of course, the Montego/Maestro/Metro habit of disappearing into a
puddle of rust overnight.

--
Skipweasel.
In the beginning was the word.
And the word was Aardvark.

[Clive George]

"JackH" <jackhackettuk@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:2tkfm9F20nmcaU1@uni-berlin.de...

> The 2.0i petrols in general, weren't too bad - IME, it's the 1.6 and 1.3
> petrols, in both Maestro and Montego form, that gave more grief than
> anything, due to the Lucas sourced ECUs, which were very unreliable.
>
> To be fair, when they worked properly, they were pretty good on fuel etc.,
> due to the electronically controlled carb working vvery efficiently.

I don't think there was an ECU in the 1.3. Electronic ignition, but nothing
else fancy.

I wonder if I was just lucky. B reg 1.6 Montego never gave any problems
until my sister discovered how hard bollards are, and I quite liked my E reg
1.3 Maestro (with 5 speed box - essential upgrade) - it was still happy at
130K miles (well, the mechanical bits. Body wasn't _too_ bad, but there was
a certain amount of rot).

(Passed the Maestro onto my sister, who given the choice of my slightly
battered but mechanically sound one or her bf's mum's nice looking but only
ever used in town one, chose wrong. Mine may have looked a bit tatty, but
the engine etc was in fine nick.)

cheers,
clive

[JackH]

"Guy King" <guy.king@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:31303030343237394175241F28@zetnet.co.uk...
> The message <2tkfm9F20nmcaU1@uni-berlin.de>
> from "JackH" <jackhackettuk@yahoo.co.uk> contains these words:
>
> > The diesels on the other hand, are pretty spot on overall, and I suspect
my
> > problems only stem from the previous owner not mainataining it very well
in
> > later life.

> And, of course, the Montego/Maestro/Metro habit of disappearing into a
> puddle of rust overnight.

Ho yuss.

Fortunately, my 'new' one is blemish free underneath, and only has the
obligatory inner skin rot on the doors.

Dads Maestro is almost mint - must have been garaged most of its life, I
reckon.

--
JackH

[JackH]

"Clive George" <clive@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:417527ba$0$59477$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net...
> "JackH" <jackhackettuk@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:2tkfm9F20nmcaU1@uni-berlin.de...

> > The 2.0i petrols in general, weren't too bad - IME, it's the 1.6 and 1.3
> > petrols, in both Maestro and Montego form, that gave more grief than
> > anything, due to the Lucas sourced ECUs, which were very unreliable.

> > To be fair, when they worked properly, they were pretty good on fuel
etc.,
> > due to the electronically controlled carb working vvery efficiently.

> I don't think there was an ECU in the 1.3. Electronic ignition, but
nothing
> else fancy.

Oh, there was - if you had manual choke, chances are you only had one box
out of two - if you had automatic choke, it was IIRC, electronically
controlled, and also used by the ECU to richen the mixture slightly when the
car was floored, hence when it was working properly, they ran quite lean and
were economical for their class, but when it all went a bit Pete Tong your
tickover went to ****, as did your economy.

All from distant memory, mind, so some of the above may be 'rowlocks'... but
they definitely had an ECU controlled set up, on the carb... unless you had
a van or some City models, if fitted as standard with a manual choke.

> I wonder if I was just lucky. B reg 1.6 Montego never gave any problems
> until my sister discovered how hard bollards are, and I quite liked my E
reg
> 1.3 Maestro (with 5 speed box - essential upgrade) - it was still happy at
> 130K miles (well, the mechanical bits. Body wasn't _too_ bad, but there
was
> a certain amount of rot).

> (Passed the Maestro onto my sister, who given the choice of my slightly
> battered but mechanically sound one or her bf's mum's nice looking but
only
> ever used in town one, chose wrong. Mine may have looked a bit tatty, but
> the engine etc was in fine nick.)

Always the way!

--
JackH

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <417527ba$0$59477$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net>,
Clive George <clive@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> > To be fair, when they worked properly, they were pretty good on fuel
> > etc., due to the electronically controlled carb working vvery
> > efficiently.

> I don't think there was an ECU in the 1.3. Electronic ignition, but
> nothing else fancy.

I'd have thought it needed it with a carb to pass emission regs?

The ECU itself was fairly reliable. It was that stupid vacuum sensor that
failed - and couldn't be replaced. Although I'm sure it would be possible
to find something that would work.

I had a 1.6 for a couple of years, and the carb and electronics worked
very well - certainly much better than any other auto choke mechanism I've
come across. But like all unknowns, I'll bet it sufferered from bodging at
the average dealer.

--
*When I'm not in my right mind, my left mind gets pretty crowded *

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Clive George]

"JackH" <jackhackettuk@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:2tktafF20mg0fU1@uni-berlin.de...
>
> > I don't think there was an ECU in the 1.3. Electronic ignition, but
> nothing
> > else fancy.
>
> Oh, there was - if you had manual choke, chances are you only had one box
> out of two - if you had automatic choke, it was IIRC, electronically
> controlled, and also used by the ECU to richen the mixture slightly when
the
> car was floored, hence when it was working properly, they ran quite lean
and
> were economical for their class, but when it all went a bit Pete Tong your
> tickover went to ****, as did your economy.
>
> All from distant memory, mind, so some of the above may be 'rowlocks'...
but
> they definitely had an ECU controlled set up, on the carb... unless you
had
> a van or some City models, if fitted as standard with a manual choke.

Mine was an 'L', ie mid range (plastic bumpers). Manual choke, but still
quite economical anyway.
I wonder if they went manual for the later cars (mine was an '87)? I do
remember the 1.6 having an ECU.

cheers,
clive

[Stuffed]

"Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4d00624676dave@davenoise.co.uk...
> In article <417527ba$0$59477$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net>,
> Clive George <clive@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> > > To be fair, when they worked properly, they were pretty good on fuel
> > > etc., due to the electronically controlled carb working vvery
> > > efficiently.
>
> > I don't think there was an ECU in the 1.3. Electronic ignition, but
> > nothing else fancy.
>
> I'd have thought it needed it with a carb to pass emission regs?

I took a carb off a 1.3 Maestro last year to fit something else entirely
(although that fell through in the end, and last week I was glad, when I had
to rob the needle valve out of it). No leccy bits whatsoever, just a good
old SU on a rather crap looking manifold. I don't know if the very last ones
had anything changed or not though.

The electronic ignition is basically just a hall effect sensor in place of
points, and a known mod for pretty much any Lucas based old car. I haven't
had much experience of it yet though, first one I've had is on the Metro,
which I've done all of about 50 miles in so far. I still think it's possibly
a bit dodgy, but unlike proper points and condensor, it's not a 10 second
job to check from what I can tell.

[SimonJ]

> .................and would keep my Golf TDI over the
> Montegos.
>
That must have been a hard decision.
Bet you were tearing your hair out for days over that one!