Re: Fuggit - That's me keeping the L plates a bit longer then :-/

[sweller]

Bear wrote:

> ****ing respect. I could never learn that degree of brake control,
> especially not when banked over so I leave the brakes well alone when
> cornering.

I don't think it's a matter of massive amounts brake control capability
just a case of keeping the bike balanced 'balanced'.

I've found it very useful, on occasion, to drag the Guzzi's back brake
when it's run out of ground clearance [1] on fast wide corners.

This also has the effect of also applying one of the front disks which
seems to settle the whole plot down. I wouldn't use the front disk by
itself to any great extent mid corner.


[1] Usually indicated on left handers by the side stand touching down
but on right handers it feels like I'm riding on a pair of 50 pence
pieces. I do not like this feeling...

--
Simon

http://www.sweller.co.uk/sob/

[sweller]

Bear wrote:

> > I've found it very useful, on occasion, to drag the Guzzi's back brake
> > when it's run out of ground clearance [1] on fast wide corners.
>
> Like I mentioned, I'm fine with using the rear brake to steady the bike
> mid corner, though I usually see it as an admission I read the corner
> wrong, but Veggie's talking about balancing a slide with it, on a
> sportsbike, which is way beyond my abilities.

I read it as Veggie was taking the weight off the front to stop it
pushing and giving back the bikes stability; not about sliding the back.

Either way I meant it in a keeping the bike balanced through the corner
way rather than "oops, I've ****ed this up".


> Grab a fistful of front is a good way to either sit the bike up and run
> wide <crash!>, or lock the front and have it tuck under <crash!>

I'm fairly confident I've mastered the panic braking instincts.


> > [1] Usually indicated on left handers by the side stand touching down
> > but on right handers it feels like I'm riding on a pair of 50 pence
> > pieces. I do not like this feeling...
>
> Buy a bike with more ground clearance? Or is getting something fairly
> ancient to work properly half the fun? :)

Ground clearance isn't really a problem TBH
http://www.sweller.dynalias.org/images/guz_front.jpg

--
Simon

http://www.sweller.co.uk/sob/

[Bear]

In article <xn0dx0b2r2ryzo004@news.individual.net>, sweller says...
> Bear wrote:
>
> > > I've found it very useful, on occasion, to drag the Guzzi's back brake
> > > when it's run out of ground clearance [1] on fast wide corners.
> >
> > Like I mentioned, I'm fine with using the rear brake to steady the bike
> > mid corner, though I usually see it as an admission I read the corner
> > wrong, but Veggie's talking about balancing a slide with it, on a
> > sportsbike, which is way beyond my abilities.
>
> I read it as Veggie was taking the weight off the front to stop it
> pushing and giving back the bikes stability; not about sliding the back.

I didn't mean he was sliding the back, I read it that has was capable of
balancing a slide on the back brake, IYSWIM. i.e. the front starts
pushing so he dials in some rear to compensate.

Anyway, jolly clever stuff. I doubt I could do that.

> Either way I meant it in a keeping the bike balanced through the corner
> way rather than "oops, I've ****ed this up".

Yeah I tried that tack for a while on the 9R ... didn't seem to do very
much TBH, although the 9R's back brake wasn't exactly what you'd call
subtle, and neither am I, so that could have been the problem ... can't
recall trying it on the R1, although if I did the results were obviously
not evil enough to etch themselves on my memory.

> > Grab a fistful of front is a good way to either sit the bike up and run
> > wide <crash!>, or lock the front and have it tuck under <crash!>
>
> I'm fairly confident I've mastered the panic braking instincts.

I definitely have on the panic braking front; where I need to improve is
in target fixation during moments of terror/threat. I still tend to look
at whatever has just pulled out in front of me, rather than looking at
an escape route.

> > > [1] Usually indicated on left handers by the side stand touching down
> > > but on right handers it feels like I'm riding on a pair of 50 pence
> > > pieces. I do not like this feeling...
> >
> > Buy a bike with more ground clearance? Or is getting something fairly
> > ancient to work properly half the fun? :)
>
> Ground clearance isn't really a problem TBH
> http://www.sweller.dynalias.org/images/guz_front.jpg

Such attractive "plain" bikes, those Guzzis ... nothing flash, no
technology to speak of, just dead "bike looking" IYSWIM :)

What are the brakes like on yours, out of interest.
--
Bear
"Don't believe the hype"
Today's music: Marillion "Marbles"

[sweller]

Bear wrote:

> I definitely have on the panic braking front; where I need to improve
> is in target fixation during moments of terror/threat. I still tend to
> look at whatever has just pulled out in front of me, rather than
> looking at an escape route.

I've got the target fixation mostly sorted. Although I have managed to
run over two pedestrians in the last 4 years. There is a good chance
that may be MZ Trophy brakes and stupid people related.

Out on the road with bikes other than the MZ it's not a problem. The
bins I have had, that were down to me, have been due to misreading the
road surface. Outbraking myself on gravel strewn roads (twice - once in
France) and greasy roads where the back decided to overtake the front.

Basically: "Being a twat".


> > http://www.sweller.dynalias.org/images/guz_front.jpg
>
> Such attractive "plain" bikes, those Guzzis ... nothing flash, no
> technology to speak of, just dead "bike looking" IYSWIM :)
>
> What are the brakes like on yours, out of interest.

They were very good in a 1970's way, certainly a lot better than
contemporary Japanese, but since fitting the 4 pot Brembos on the front
coupled with good cast disks they're a *massive* improvement.

I've had the back end up (not far) just on the single disk but with the
skinny forks, long heavy bike it doesn't feel right and very inelegant on
landing.

--
Simon

http://www.sweller.co.uk/sob/

[sweller]

sweller wrote:

> They were very good in a 1970's way, certainly a lot better than
> contemporary Japanese, but since fitting the 4 pot Brembos on the front
> coupled with good cast disks they're a massive improvement.

Mean't to add: Champ's view was they seemed OK but it then transpired he
was only using the one disk (the conventional hand operated one) and
Platty said he hadn't really noticed as shutting the throttle seemed to
have the effect of stopping it dead.

--
Simon

http://www.sweller.co.uk/sob/

[Bear]

In article <xn0dx0c1f40zdb005@news.individual.net>, sweller says...
> Bear wrote:

> > What are the brakes like on yours, out of interest.
>
> They were very good in a 1970's way, certainly a lot better than
> contemporary Japanese, but since fitting the 4 pot Brembos on the front
> coupled with good cast disks they're a *massive* improvement.

Ah, right ... I asked because they didn't look the same age as the bike
:)

> I've had the back end up (not far) just on the single disk but with the
> skinny forks, long heavy bike it doesn't feel right and very inelegant on
> landing.

I can imagine ... the length alone would cause problems, I would have
thought.
--
Bear
"Don't believe the hype"
Today's music: Marillion "Marbles"

[The Older Gentleman]

sweller <ng@mztech.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:

> sweller wrote:
>
> > They were very good in a 1970's way, certainly a lot better than
> > contemporary Japanese, but since fitting the 4 pot Brembos on the front
> > coupled with good cast disks they're a massive improvement.
>
> Mean't to add: Champ's view was they seemed OK but it then transpired he
> was only using the one disk (the conventional hand operated one) and
> Platty said he hadn't really noticed as shutting the throttle seemed to
> have the effect of stopping it dead.


Not as much as it does on my Duke, I'll bet. I used to remember you'd
close the throttle on my old Spadas and the heavy flywheel would mean
the thing ploughed on like the Titanic towards the iceberg.

Or have you lightened the flywheel on yours?

The Duke is a joke. If you want to scrub 10mph off the speed, just close
the throttle for one second: job done. On French Runs there have been
people telling me that the brake light is busted because they've never
seen it come on.

It's still on the original pads after seven years and 25,000 miles :-0

I really, really liked the old Guzzi linked systrem. Once you adapted to
it, it worked so well and you very rarely had to use the "hand" brake.

Honda nicked the idea in its totality for early Aspencade versions of
the Wing, before going bok and coming up with the complicated linked
system they currently use (and which no other manufacturer has thought
was worth copying).



--
Trophy 1200 (Doctored) 750SS CB400F CD200 ST70 DT50MX
GAGARPHOF#30 GHPOTHUF#1 BOTAFOT#60 ANORAK#06 YTC#3
BOF#30 WUSS#5 The bells, the bells.....

[sweller]

The Older Gentleman wrote:

> Not as much as it does on my Duke, I'll bet. I used to remember you'd
> close the throttle on my old Spadas and the heavy flywheel would mean
> the thing ploughed on like the Titanic towards the iceberg.
>
> Or have you lightened the flywheel on yours?

It has a Le Man flywheel which is marginally lighter. They can be made
much much lighter.


> I really, really liked the old Guzzi linked systrem. Once you adapted to
> it, it worked so well and you very rarely had to use the "hand" brake.

TBH, I'm amazed that it isn't more widespread. Although motorcyclists
tend to be quite conservative; very much "I'll put the brakes on when I
want to" etc etc.

I appreciate that front only braking changes the suspension angles
allowing faster turn ins but for quick road riding the linked brakes
provide a very stable platform.

I can't think of any mass-produced cars, even with a sports bias, that
have brake balance adjustment.

--
Simon

http://www.sweller.co.uk/sob/

[Grimly Curmudgeon]

It was somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "sweller" <ng@mztech.fsnet.co.uk>
saying something like:

>I can't think of any mass-produced cars, even with a sports bias, that
>have brake balance adjustment.

They've all got it, else you'd be doing 360s every time you braked on a
bend. Mind you, it's not adjustable from inside.

--

Dave

GS 850 x2 / SE 6a
SbS#6 DIAABTCOD#16 APOSTLE#6 FUB#3
FUB KotL OSOS#12? UKRMMA#19 COSOC#10

[Champ]

On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 21:29:29 +0000, Grimly Curmudgeon
<grimlycurmudgeon683@hotmail.com> wrote:

>It was somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
>drugs began to take hold. I remember "sweller" <ng@mztech.fsnet.co.uk>
>saying something like:
>
>>I can't think of any mass-produced cars, even with a sports bias, that
>>have brake balance adjustment.
>
>They've all got it, else you'd be doing 360s every time you braked on a
>bend. Mind you, it's not adjustable from inside.

Are you having a laugh? Are you suggesting that cars have automatic
and dynamic transfer of braking force bewteen the front and rear
wheels?
--
Champ

[platypus]

sweller wrote:
> sweller wrote:
>
>> They were very good in a 1970's way, certainly a lot better than
>> contemporary Japanese, but since fitting the 4 pot Brembos on the
>> front coupled with good cast disks they're a massive improvement.
>
> Mean't to add: Champ's view was they seemed OK but it then
^
<*BANG*>

> transpired he was only using the one disk (the conventional hand
> operated one) and Platty said he hadn't really noticed as shutting
> the throttle seemed to have the effect of stopping it dead.

Going into a corner, the engine braking was impressive, but nowhere near as
impressive as the false-neutral braking when I changed down...

Arsehole=f64

--
platypus

no need to ask

[Grimly Curmudgeon]

It was somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Champ <news@champ.org.uk> saying
something like:

>>They've all got it, else you'd be doing 360s every time you braked on a
>>bend. Mind you, it's not adjustable from inside.
>
>Are you having a laugh? Are you suggesting that cars have automatic
>and dynamic transfer of braking force bewteen the front and rear
>wheels?

Yes. A load balancing valve on the rear axle. It's activated according
to the rear load and restricts brake system pressure to the rear wheels.

Just for a laugh, try disconnecting it one day.

--

Dave

GS 850 x2 / SE 6a
SbS#6 DIAABTCOD#16 APOSTLE#6 FUB#3
FUB KotL OSOS#12? UKRMMA#19 COSOC#10

[_ginge]

In article <ukk0u0l2l01p6cl5oencc79t4magkpco4r@4ax.com>, Champ says...
> On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 21:29:29 +0000, Grimly Curmudgeon
> <grimlycurmudgeon683@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >It was somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
> >drugs began to take hold. I remember "sweller" <ng@mztech.fsnet.co.uk>
> >saying something like:
> >
> >>I can't think of any mass-produced cars, even with a sports bias, that
> >>have brake balance adjustment.
> >
> >They've all got it, else you'd be doing 360s every time you braked on a
> >bend. Mind you, it's not adjustable from inside.
>
> Are you having a laugh? Are you suggesting that cars have automatic
> and dynamic transfer of braking force bewteen the front and rear
> wheels?

I always thought cars just ran 2 seperatebrake circuits (unless they
have flashy traction control)

Like this

Circuit 1 Circuit 2
+--+ +--+
|/ \ |
+ +


So there's twice the braking effory up front as to the back.. and some
level of redundancy.

[Mark Olson]

platypus <monotreme@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

> Arsehole=f64

I must add this to my collection of high quality metaphors.

--
Mark '01 SV650S '99 EX250-F13 '86 GL1200A '81 CM400T

[platypus]

Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
> It was somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
> drugs began to take hold. I remember Champ <news@champ.org.uk> saying
> something like:
>
>>> They've all got it, else you'd be doing 360s every time you braked
>>> on a bend. Mind you, it's not adjustable from inside.
>>
>> Are you having a laugh? Are you suggesting that cars have automatic
>> and dynamic transfer of braking force bewteen the front and rear
>> wheels?
>
> Yes. A load balancing valve on the rear axle. It's activated according
> to the rear load and restricts brake system pressure to the rear
> wheels.
>
> Just for a laugh, try disconnecting it one day.

My old BX ran its front brakes off main hydraulic pressure, and the rears
off rear suspension pressure.

--
platypus

no need to ask

[Steve Uzochukwu]

On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 17:52:19 +0000, "sweller" <ng@mztech.fsnet.co.uk>
wildly wibbled thus:



>I can't think of any mass-produced cars, even with a sports bias, that
>have brake balance adjustment.
>

Citroens, via the load sensing valve that decides how much brake is
applied to the rear depending on load.

What ever happened to Mr. Packer?


--
Steve Uzochukwu, Avian Amour and Windtech Quarx.
http://www.steveu.org/
The UKRM FAQ: http://www.ukrm.net/faq/index.html
************************************************** *************

[Grimly Curmudgeon]

It was somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "platypus"
<monotreme@blueyonder.co.uk> saying something like:

>My old BX ran its front brakes off main hydraulic pressure, and the rears
>off rear suspension pressure.

Bloody French plumbing. Where did the bidet go?

--

Dave

GS 850 x2 / SE 6a
SbS#6 DIAABTCOD#16 APOSTLE#6 FUB#3
FUB KotL OSOS#12? UKRMMA#19 COSOC#10

[sweller]

Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:

> The original point I was making about Sweller's post though, is that
> cars without some method of reducing the brake effort to the rear would
> quite rapidly create holes in hedges. It's there, it's just that we
> don't see it.

The point I was making was there is no driver adjustable brake bias.

--
Simon

http://www.sweller.co.uk/sob/

[sweller]

Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:

> The original point I was making about Sweller's post though, is that
> cars without some method of reducing the brake effort to the rear would
> quite rapidly create holes in hedges. It's there, it's just that we
> don't see it.

The point I was making is the brake bias is not adjustable by the driver.

--
Simon

http://www.sweller.co.uk/sob/

[Champ]

On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 01:24:46 GMT, randombloke@genie.co.uk (Steve
Uzochukwu) wrote:

>What ever happened to Mr. Packer?

He grew out of usenet.
--
Champ

[The Older Gentleman]

platypus <monotreme@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

> Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
> > It was somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
> > drugs began to take hold. I remember Champ <news@champ.org.uk> saying
> > something like:
> >
> >>> They've all got it, else you'd be doing 360s every time you braked
> >>> on a bend. Mind you, it's not adjustable from inside.
> >>
> >> Are you having a laugh? Are you suggesting that cars have automatic
> >> and dynamic transfer of braking force bewteen the front and rear
> >> wheels?
> >
> > Yes. A load balancing valve on the rear axle. It's activated according
> > to the rear load and restricts brake system pressure to the rear
> > wheels.
> >
> > Just for a laugh, try disconnecting it one day.
>
> My old BX ran its front brakes off main hydraulic pressure, and the rears
> off rear suspension pressure.


I was about to say "What a dog's breakfast" and then it occurred to me
that the more you load the back, the higher the rear suspension
pressure, and so the more braking force you'll need on the rear wheels.

And I changed my stance to: "That's quite ingenious, if it works
properly".


--
Trophy 1200 (Doctored) 750SS CB400F CD200 ST70 DT50MX
GAGARPHOF#30 GHPOTHUF#1 BOTAFOT#60 ANORAK#06 YTC#3
BOF#30 WUSS#5 The bells, the bells.....

[Ben Blaney]

Champ wrote:

>On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 01:24:46 GMT, randombloke@genie.co.uk (Steve
>Uzochukwu) wrote:
>
>>What ever happened to Mr. Packer?
>
>He grew out of usenet.

gaylord

--
Ben Blaney

[Grimly Curmudgeon]

It was somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "sweller" <ng@mztech.fsnet.co.uk>
saying something like:

>> The original point I was making about Sweller's post though, is that
>> cars without some method of reducing the brake effort to the rear would
>> quite rapidly create holes in hedges. It's there, it's just that we
>> don't see it.
>
>The point I was making is the brake bias is not adjustable by the driver.

Course it is; you tell the fat bastard in the passenger seat to climb
into the back and hang on. Just like the sidecarists.

--

Dave

GS 850 x2 / SE 6a
SbS#6 DIAABTCOD#16 APOSTLE#6 FUB#3
FUB KotL OSOS#12? UKRMMA#19 COSOC#10

[platypus]

The Older Gentleman wrote:
> platypus <monotreme@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
>>> It was somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
>>> drugs began to take hold. I remember Champ <news@champ.org.uk>
>>> saying something like:
>>>
>>>>> They've all got it, else you'd be doing 360s every time you braked
>>>>> on a bend. Mind you, it's not adjustable from inside.
>>>>
>>>> Are you having a laugh? Are you suggesting that cars have
>>>> automatic and dynamic transfer of braking force bewteen the front
>>>> and rear wheels?
>>>
>>> Yes. A load balancing valve on the rear axle. It's activated
>>> according to the rear load and restricts brake system pressure to
>>> the rear wheels.
>>>
>>> Just for a laugh, try disconnecting it one day.
>>
>> My old BX ran its front brakes off main hydraulic pressure, and the
>> rears off rear suspension pressure.
>
>
> I was about to say "What a dog's breakfast" and then it occurred to me
> that the more you load the back, the higher the rear suspension
> pressure, and so the more braking force you'll need on the rear
> wheels.
>
> And I changed my stance to: "That's quite ingenious, if it works
> properly".

It did. I could lock all four wheels simultaneously.

--
platypus

no need to ask