Re: Fuggit - That's me keeping the L plates a bit longer then :-/

[Champ]

On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 21:05:07 +0000, Christopher Des Clayes
<Chris@127.0.0.1> wrote:

>>>Explain that one then.
>>
>>I do believe he's trying to explain how hitting the rear brake slightly
>>before the front ones can, especially in the wet, dramatically lessen
>>the massive transfer of weight forward thus allowing harder braking,
>>except he's got the weight transfer direction wrong
>
>When the rear brake is applied, two forces cause the swinging arm to
>pivot: wheel rotational momentum and forward momentum. These combine
>to make the swinging arm rotate about both the rear wheel spindle and
>the rear tyre contact patch, and so the front of the swinging arm
>moves lower in relation to the rear wheel spindle.
>
>This not only causes the rear suspension to compress, but also exerts
>a downward force through the frame, compressing the front forks and
>increasing the available friction should the rider decide to apply the
>front brake.

Getting the weight onto the front wheel is not a problem - hit the
front brake and the weigth will transfer to the front as fast as you
like.

Pip explained the valid point (as far as I can see, thinking about it)
that compressing the rear spring first (by application of the back
brake marginally before the front) can lessen the likelihood of the
rear wheel leaving the ground.
--
Champ

[Christopher Des Clayes]

On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 21:37:18 +0000, Champ <news@champ.org.uk> wrote:

>On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 21:05:07 +0000, Christopher Des Clayes
><Chris@127.0.0.1> wrote:
>
>>>>Explain that one then.
>>>
>>>I do believe he's trying to explain how hitting the rear brake slightly
>>>before the front ones can, especially in the wet, dramatically lessen
>>>the massive transfer of weight forward thus allowing harder braking,
>>>except he's got the weight transfer direction wrong
>>
>>When the rear brake is applied, two forces cause the swinging arm to
>>pivot: wheel rotational momentum and forward momentum. These combine
>>to make the swinging arm rotate about both the rear wheel spindle and
>>the rear tyre contact patch, and so the front of the swinging arm
>>moves lower in relation to the rear wheel spindle.
>>
>>This not only causes the rear suspension to compress, but also exerts
>>a downward force through the frame, compressing the front forks and
>>increasing the available friction should the rider decide to apply the
>>front brake.
>
>Getting the weight onto the front wheel is not a problem - hit the
>front brake and the weigth will transfer to the front as fast as you
>like.

On a good surface yes, but the weight transfer due to applying the
front brake can only happen because of the friction forces between
front tyre and road. When the road surface is less than ideal the
additional weight transfer caused by the rear brake will help.

>Pip explained the valid point (as far as I can see, thinking about it)
>that compressing the rear spring first (by application of the back
>brake marginally before the front) can lessen the likelihood of the
>rear wheel leaving the ground.

I agree that this may be the greater of the factors involved.
--
Chris Des Clayes (Header addresses are munged)
Reply to chris@ffcc.powernet.co.uk, but remove one "f"
VN1500 Drifter (Gertrude) - Twice the fun at half the speed.
Barrel Bikers (Buckingham) MCC (www.barrelbikers.co.uk) UKMC#9

[Nigel Eaton]

Using the patented Mavis Beacon "Hunt&Peck" Technique, Christopher Des
Clayes <Chris@127.0.0.1> typed
>On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 21:37:18 +0000, Champ <news@champ.org.uk> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 21:05:07 +0000, Christopher Des Clayes
>><Chris@127.0.0.1> wrote:
>>
>>>>>Explain that one then.
>>>>
>>>>I do believe he's trying to explain how hitting the rear brake slightly
>>>>before the front ones can, especially in the wet, dramatically lessen
>>>>the massive transfer of weight forward thus allowing harder braking,
>>>>except he's got the weight transfer direction wrong
>>>
>>>When the rear brake is applied, two forces cause the swinging arm to
>>>pivot: wheel rotational momentum and forward momentum. These combine
>>>to make the swinging arm rotate about both the rear wheel spindle and
>>>the rear tyre contact patch, and so the front of the swinging arm
>>>moves lower in relation to the rear wheel spindle.
>>>
>>>This not only causes the rear suspension to compress, but also exerts
>>>a downward force through the frame, compressing the front forks and
>>>increasing the available friction should the rider decide to apply the
>>>front brake.
>>
>>Getting the weight onto the front wheel is not a problem - hit the
>>front brake and the weigth will transfer to the front as fast as you
>>like.
>
>On a good surface yes, but the weight transfer due to applying the
>front brake can only happen because of the friction forces between
>front tyre and road. When the road surface is less than ideal the
>additional weight transfer caused by the rear brake will help.
>
>>Pip explained the valid point (as far as I can see, thinking about it)
>>that compressing the rear spring first (by application of the back
>>brake marginally before the front) can lessen the likelihood of the
>>rear wheel leaving the ground.
>
>I agree that this may be the greater of the factors involved.



<bimble, bimble, bimble>

"Looks like that bloke might be about to pull ou... Oh **** he has!
Right then. Erm... Back brake first, 'cos that'll cause the rear
suspension to compress. Or was it front brake first, to maximise braking
due to the increase in the area of the contact patch? Don't want to have
the back end come round. Is it wet? Is the surface good? Perhaps I'll
just..."

<BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANG!>

"Ow".

--
Nigel - Manufacturer of the "Champion-105" range of rearsets

WS* GHPOTHUF#24 APOSTLE#14 DLC#1 COFF#20 BOTAFOT#150 HYPO#0(KoTL) IbW#41
ZZR1100, Enfield 500 Curry House Racer "The Basmati Rice Burner",
Honda GL1000K2 (On its hols) Kawasaki ZN1300 Voyager "Oh, Oh, It's so big"

[Preston Kemp]

Christopher Des Clayes wrote:
>
> I don't worry about the mechanics of it but if I want maximum braking
> I automatically apply the rear brake fractionally before the front. It
> feels right.
>
> Trying to explain why my riding style has evolved that way over the
> years is far more difficult.

Possibly because of the types of bike you're most used to? I generally
don't bother with the back brake on stiffly sprung sportsbikes, but on
heavy bikes with soft suspension it makes a BIG difference. Giving the
rear a prod to compress the shock, or at least stop it extending
quickly, noticeably reduces the amount of front end dive you get when
you do yank on the front brake.

--
Preston.

http://www.muddystuff.co.uk
Off-road classifieds

'02 MV Senna '96 Tiger '79 Fantic 250
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/uk_tiger_rides

[Christopher Des Clayes]

On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 22:40:55 GMT, "Preston Kemp"
<dontwantany@nowhere.invalid> wrote:

>Christopher Des Clayes wrote:
>>
>> I don't worry about the mechanics of it but if I want maximum braking
>> I automatically apply the rear brake fractionally before the front. It
>> feels right.
>>
>> Trying to explain why my riding style has evolved that way over the
>> years is far more difficult.
>
>Possibly because of the types of bike you're most used to? I generally
>don't bother with the back brake on stiffly sprung sportsbikes, but on
>heavy bikes with soft suspension it makes a BIG difference. Giving the
>rear a prod to compress the shock, or at least stop it extending
>quickly, noticeably reduces the amount of front end dive you get when
>you do yank on the front brake.

Could be true. I've never owned a modern sportsbike, though I have
ridden a few.
--
Chris Des Clayes (Header addresses are munged)
Reply to chris@ffcc.powernet.co.uk, but remove one "f"
VN1500 Drifter (Gertrude) - Twice the fun at half the speed.
Barrel Bikers (Buckingham) MCC (www.barrelbikers.co.uk) UKMC#9